Thanks for the article

A question, so alhamdulillah we can proof 10th Muharram and a Jewish fast occurred in the 1st year of the Hijrah.

Based on the hadith “If i live…I will fast the 9th”. This indicates that the the year before and ones before them the 2 dates also matched. Is this the case according to your research?

Jazak Allah khair so much for your thoughtful comment, I found it quite inspirational 🙂

Here are the thoughts of a Muslim layperson, neither a scholar nor a polemic. As I reflect on Ashura, and the uncertainty of dates, and its correlation with events of significance to the Jewish community. After reading the extensive discussion on this thread, I am left with the same conclusion that I feel sums up arguments about the actual date of laylat-ul-qadr.

The reason we don’t have a specific date for the “night of power” relates to the disagreements and verbal hostilities that took place on one night at the time of Prophet.

‘Ubaadah Ibn Saamit relates: “Once the Prophet (SWS) came out to inform us of the (correct date of) Laylatul Qadr. Unfortunately, a quarrel took place between two Muslims, whereupon He (SWS) said ‘I came out to inform you as to when Laylatul Qadr occurs, but because two people quarreled with each other, the knowledge of the correct date was taken away. Perhaps that is better for you. So, seek it among the ninth, seventh and fifth nights.'”

The Noble Prophet also related: “Shall I inform you of an action that is better than Salaah, fasting and charity?” The Sahabah replied: “Certainly.” Rasulullah (SWS) replied ” “Maintain peaceful and good relations amongst yourselves, for verily quarrels among yourselves removes faith,”

This Ashura, I’m using the day to thank God for everything He has gifted us, including most importantly an opportunity to gain insight into our own failings. Moreover, I’m reaching out to our brothers and in the Jewish community and rekindling friendships over common grounds. This should be a holiday that unites communities and brings salaam to hearts and minds. Today in 9 attacks, 22 people died in attacks upon Shia holy sites. What a sad state of affairs. We should consider that just as blasts damage bodies, words are in turn like arrows.

To me, once more, an unlettered nobody, the real message of Ashura is bridge building instead of putting up walls between hearts. I believe the Prophet (PBUH) was the perfect embodiment of this attribute. Quarreling with others over the veracity of things that are simply not known was not part of his playbook.

That all being said, the above discussion from previous years was fascinating and illuminating.

Peace, love and goodness to each of those who took time to respond to this thread.

Additionally, many blessings to those who humbled themselves, and made their speech gentle in their discourse with their fellow Muslims.

Rushdi Abdul Cader

Br. Adnan, as salaamu ‘alaikum,

I know that this is an old post and you might not be reading my reply but I wanted to commend you on how well composed you have kept your etiquette in your reply. In my perception, you were unjustly accused of being rash and not tactful in your original post in a manner that in fact exactly fit the attitude of the accuser, yet you came back humbly, politely and yet intelligently in return to that.

Good for you.
Your sister in Islam.

Jazak Allah khair.

Very true Br. John,

I’m looking over my first post and do see my error in etiquette. Forgive me for that, Br. Shibli. I had become quite aroused over what I saw as clearly incorrect, but my own matching of Muharram to Nisan may also be just as incorrect. In the end, we’re left to speculate over Ashura as the scholars of the past have done – and since they were not able to come to an answer, we are just as unlikely to do so.

Salam Alaikum Br. Shibli,

It seems I may have struck a nerve – sorry for that. I did not by any means want my objection to be taken personally, but I do believe that the content of the article reveals a major faulty assumption that greatly contradicts the position you have taken, i.e. that the fast of Muharram originated from the Jewish fast of Av – which is significant for the Jews primarily because it is the day to mourn the destruction of both temples.

I never once said that the 10th of Muharram corresponded exactly to the days of Passover, nor that the Jews fast on Passover. My argument is that in the only year in the Messenger’s (saws) life where we can credibly match the Islamic and Hebraic Calendar (11AH), Ashura occurred in close association (shortly before) the days of Passover, which are significant for the Jews with regards to God saving Musa and the Israelites from the Pharaoh. This still raises a lot of questions for me. Why the 10th and not the 14th or 15th? We can speculate as our scholars of the past have done, but may not come to a clear answer.

The Sunni hadith concerning Ashura talk of two incidents. One incident is the Messenger’s last Muharram alive, the Muharram where he made an intention to distinguish Muslim practice from that of the Jews and Christians. As we’ve discussed above, this occurred in 11AH and coincided with the Jewish sacred month of Nisan.

The other incident, however, was when the Messenger (saws) first entered Medina, i.e. Muharram of 2AH (remember, Hijra occurred between Safar and Rabi I of 1AH so the Messenger could not have been in Medina for the Muharram of 1AH). Due to the existence of Nasi, we cannot credibly match this date to any specific date in the Hebraic or Julian calendar. Simply doing so, as you have done, is incorrect. Hence the flurry of speculation among the respected scholars of the past.

Are you really assuming that the Arabs did not have any months of Nasi in the 10 years the Messenger was in Medina? This is very unlikely, since the Quran’s prohibition does suggest that it did occur and that the practice was abused by the Arabs. Unfortunately we don’t know how many months of Nasi did occur.

If your position that Muharram 2AH corresponded to the Jewish month of Av is correct, that means there had to be at least 12 months of nasi in the 10 following years that the Messenger (saws) lived in Medina. In my opinion, this is highly unlikely – each year during that time would consistently have 13 months, and some would have 14 months, but we have no evidence of such an odd situation ever occurring.

If the Ashura of 2AH however matched Yom Kippur, there must have been about 10 months of nasi in the 10 following years the Messenger (saws) lived in Medina. Once again, each Arab year would have about 13 months – very unlikely.

If Muharram 2AH however matched the Jewish sacred month of Nisan, the month where God saved Musa (as) from the Pharaoh according to Jewish tradition, there would have been only 4 months of nasi in the 10 following years of the Messenger’s (saws) life. This is more likely – the Hebraic calendar itself had 4 months of nasi during this period (just enough to keep the calendar in line with the solar calendar), and the Arabs could have done also. This doesn’t mean that the Jews and the Arabs used the exact same calendar, but the calendars could have been similar.

Alternatively, Muharram 2AH could have corresponded to neither Av, Tishri, or Nisan in the Jewish calendar, but some other month in which the Arab Jews fasted on the 10th day. Or the Arab Jews may have been using a completely different calendar. If these were the case, we have no idea how many months of Nasi existed when the Prophet (saws) was in Medina, and we’re once again left to speculate.

Still, it should be pointed out that one cannot simply use an online “Islamic date converter” to accurately match Islamic dates before 11AH to either the Hebraic or Julian calendar. Unless you are assuming that the Arabs had no months of nasi in all the time the Messenger (saws) was in Medina, matching Ashura to the Jewish fast of Av, as you have done, is very unlikely.

But your position, though I disagree with it, is very interesting. Jews mourn on Tish’a b’Av as one of the saddest days of the year – commemorating the destruction of both temples in Jerusalem. It would be interesting that the Prophet (saws) also fasted Ashura because of this Jewish mourning day, for Ashura would come to mark the anniversary of the horrible massacre of his own family. It seems interesting that mourning over Hussain could be matched to the Jewish mourning over the destruction of the two temples.

Once again, please don’t take it personally, but I do think a more scholarly assessment of the Arab and Hebraic calendar, accounting for the known existence of Nasi, would greatly weaken the argument you make in the article.

I still have a lot of personal questions about Ashura that I can’t easily resolve. My position could definitely be wrong. In the end, as always, God knows best.

Keep well and best wishes!

Dear Brother Adnan,

Our scholars teach us that passing knowledge goes hand in hand with etiquette. It seems to me that you were very impressed with your opinion the second it popped in your head. I pray that you take an advice which was give to me by one of my teachers. “Always assume you might be wrong and research and discuss with the people of knowledge until the truth becomes clear- be it your opinion or others. Imam Shafi’ee’s famous quote “I assume my opinion right and their is a possibility it is wrong whereas my detractor I consider wrong with the possibility of being right.” is for someone who has reached the level of Imam Shafi’ee which no one on earth could claim! But if one were a Mujtahid Mutlaq then he or she might think as such. Until then lets all humble ourselves bro!

Wa `alaykum al-salām, Adnan. Why, you’re so very welcome! First and foremost, my brother, relax. Not everyone is going to agree with you, nor will you agree with everyone. Learn to differ with composure and etiquette. If you want to throw your weight around and order people to remove content from their websites just because you didn’t agree with it, then you really should be emailing the admins of the site and signing with a little bit more than just “Adnan”. Now to your points:

You said: “Since the Muslims were following the Arab lunar calendar before the 10th year of hijra, complete with its intercalary months, it is thus completely incorrect simply match the Hebraic calendar to the Arab calendar before 10 AH, as you have done…”

Only to say a few sentences later…

“And we have no clear evidence how many intercalated months actually did occur while the Prophet (saws) was in Medina.”

Precisely. Absolutely nothing is known to what degree months were intercalated, nor is there any evidence at all how often it occurred. There is a scholarly consensus that al-Nasī’ did occur, but there is no scholarly consensus on the degree of it. Al-Tabarānī narrates from Ibn Mardawayh and `Amrū bin Shu`ayb that it may have been every 27 years. Beyond that little to nothing is known.

You said: “A much more accurate analysis would look to dates after the Quran forbade intercalation, i.e. from 10AH onward. The Messenger died in the Rabi Awwal of 11AH. That preceding Muharram (his last Muharram alive) did in fact coincide with the Jewish month of Nisan – the month of Passover!”

Tada! Right? Wrong. 10 Muharram in the year 632 was a full week before Pesach (Passover). I think you knew that the dates didn’t match so you stated “the month of Passover!” as if the Jews can celebrate Passover anytime in the month.

The biggest problem with your insistence is that the Jews don’t fast for Passover. They actually feast on the Passover Seder (called Qurbān Pesach in Hebrew) from the 10th to the 15th of Nisan.

There is the Ta`nit b’Khorim or “Fast of the Firstborn”, but that is only observed by firstborn men and takes place the day before Passover on the 14th of Nisan. Even that doesn’t work according to the dates you’ve proposed.

You further stated: “This suggests that the ahadith about the Jews commemorating Musa’s (as) victory over Pharoah are indeed correct.”

Passover is not the celebration of the Moses and the Israelites crossing the Red Sea and Pharaoh being drowned. It could be a general reference to the freedom of the Jews from Egypt, but it’s agreed upon meaning is the celebration of the “Spirit of the Lord” *passing over* the houses of the believers when the souls of every firstborn were taken during the 10th Plague. The Hebrew name for Passover is “Pesach” (פֶּסַח) which is cognate to the Arabic “Fasaha” (فسح) meaning “He cleared a way”. Tynsdale was the first to call it “Passover” in English.

You further stated: “In year 11AH, according to the Jewish calendar, the Jews began celebrating Passover on Saturday, April 11, 632CE (Julian date). This corresponds to the 14th of Muharram, 11AH. The Christians were also celebrating Easter on Sunday, April 12, 632CE (Julian date). This corresponds to the 15th of Muharram, 11AH.”

So, you mean to say that `Āshūrā’ was the 14th and 15th of Muharram that year? So why isn’t it called Khamsat-`Āshūrā’?? Forgive me, but I have difficulty taking that seriously.

Then you say: “I don’t know why the 10th is special versus other days in Muharram – maybe the Arabian Jews did fast shortly before Passover.”

You don’t know why the 10th of Muharram is special and you guess the Jews just might have fasted a week before Passover. Wouldn’t it have been better then if you had posed some questions rather than the way you chose to approach this subject?

Finally, you say: “Thus we can by no means claim that Ashura is related to the Jewish fast of Av, which is a day of mourning, not rejoicing as the ahadith seem to indicate.”

The narrations do not say the 10th of Muharram is a day of rejoicing for the Jews. The Asl of the word `Eid means repetition. Meaning it happens at the designated time every year.

Ibn al-Mundhir’s Lisān al-`Arab states:

والعِيدُ كلُّ يوم فيه جَمْعٌ، واشتقاقه من عاد يَعُود كأَنهم عادوا إِليه
“And `Ēid is every day within which is a gathering. It is derived from `Ād, Ya`ūd (returning) in that they return (`Ādū) to it…”

It later came to refer to celebrations by way of association but, by definition, it means a day that is repeated at a designated time and/or date.

God knows best.

This is a subject that rests in the realm of theory and there are many possibilities. We can discuss them, disagree or agree upon them, but I humbly request that all egos be hung at the door…with all due respect.

God bless you and increase us all in knowledge.