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	Comments on: A Prophetic Response to Immigration Reform: A Muslim Perspective	</title>
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	<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Walking the Prophetic Walk for a Pathway to Citizenship		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29357</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walking the Prophetic Walk for a Pathway to Citizenship]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Sep 2013 12:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29357</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] admirable, is considered as the weakest expression of the faithful. Islam also has the story of the Prophet Muhammad’s migration as a central part of our history as Muslims, where he, like so many other Prophets before him, had [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] admirable, is considered as the weakest expression of the faithful. Islam also has the story of the Prophet Muhammad’s migration as a central part of our history as Muslims, where he, like so many other Prophets before him, had [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Barry Nuechterlein		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Nuechterlein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jul 2013 14:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An interesting article.  Quite apart from the religious obligations of Jews, Christians, and Muslims to be respectful of guests and immigrants in their countries, there is a pragmatic and cultural dimension to this that is rarely discussed.

The truth is that, before the First World War, passport controls and border controls were much less prominent.  The concept of requiring such rigid control and surveillance over the movement of people is a relatively recent concept.

While it is true that at centres like Ellis Island, immigrants were screened for communicable disease, etc. (a sensible precaution to control the spread of plagues), the idea that people needed tighter control than things is a new one.

The basic modern mindset, that views people as &quot;legal&quot; or &quot;illegal,&quot; and places power over all human movement in the hands of governments, is new.

Think about the Hajj.  While it is sensible to issue permits limiting the number of pilgrims for public safety reasons, and preventing criminals from using the cover of the pilgrimage to make mischief, why is there a whole industry and system of special visas, etc.?  I don&#039;t know what&#039;s in the heart of the princes of the House of Saud, but I think they and their friends profit nicely from this.  Not that they need the money...they have the world&#039;s biggest oil reserves in the Eastern Province, where they abuse their subjects and laugh.

This is a perverted idea, and it has taken hold in many societies, Islamic, Christian, and secular.  It is because creating a costly system of permits and restrictions (vs. just logging who comes and goes with their basic ID to screen out criminals, as was done before 1900) empowers civil servants and political leaders.

What we all have to imagine is that another world with other rules is possible.  Passports, visas, etc., are stupid, and are instruments of abuse and repression.  Why shouldn&#039;t I be able to travel to any country on the planet with a normal photo ID?  People have just gotten so used to this nonsense that they don&#039;t even understand they&#039;re being mistreated.  Sad.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting article.  Quite apart from the religious obligations of Jews, Christians, and Muslims to be respectful of guests and immigrants in their countries, there is a pragmatic and cultural dimension to this that is rarely discussed.</p>
<p>The truth is that, before the First World War, passport controls and border controls were much less prominent.  The concept of requiring such rigid control and surveillance over the movement of people is a relatively recent concept.</p>
<p>While it is true that at centres like Ellis Island, immigrants were screened for communicable disease, etc. (a sensible precaution to control the spread of plagues), the idea that people needed tighter control than things is a new one.</p>
<p>The basic modern mindset, that views people as &#8220;legal&#8221; or &#8220;illegal,&#8221; and places power over all human movement in the hands of governments, is new.</p>
<p>Think about the Hajj.  While it is sensible to issue permits limiting the number of pilgrims for public safety reasons, and preventing criminals from using the cover of the pilgrimage to make mischief, why is there a whole industry and system of special visas, etc.?  I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s in the heart of the princes of the House of Saud, but I think they and their friends profit nicely from this.  Not that they need the money&#8230;they have the world&#8217;s biggest oil reserves in the Eastern Province, where they abuse their subjects and laugh.</p>
<p>This is a perverted idea, and it has taken hold in many societies, Islamic, Christian, and secular.  It is because creating a costly system of permits and restrictions (vs. just logging who comes and goes with their basic ID to screen out criminals, as was done before 1900) empowers civil servants and political leaders.</p>
<p>What we all have to imagine is that another world with other rules is possible.  Passports, visas, etc., are stupid, and are instruments of abuse and repression.  Why shouldn&#8217;t I be able to travel to any country on the planet with a normal photo ID?  People have just gotten so used to this nonsense that they don&#8217;t even understand they&#8217;re being mistreated.  Sad.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ZAI		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29355</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ZAI]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jul 2013 04:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29355</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Complicated issue w/ no simplistic solution.

#1 Taking examples of the prophetic period, the period of the khulaafa ar rashidoun or even any time in the classical Islamic period is problematic due to the fact that modern economies simply don&#039;t function as they do today. In the pre-modern period Immigration did not occur at todays level and did not negatively affect local economies. 

#2 What Islam would condemn is immigration being restricted based on ethnicity or creed...but a local ruler
can absolutely impose restrictions based on economic welfare, just as tariffs have always existed in most nations. Basically a ruler has to weigh cost/benefit and has every right to protect the society if it would cause harm.

For example, if theoretically in the Muslim world...rich nations like Saudi Arabia or UAE allowed unrestricted immigration...they would be FLOODED with immigrants from poor regions like Sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia the NEXT DAY. It would create a catastrophe for the local economy. It simply does not work in the modern world...to think otherwise is PC feel good liberal talk.

Right here in the States, ILLEGAL immigration is also posing very real problems. The line is often heard that &quot;immigrants do jobs Americans won&#039;t do&quot;...Yes, but that&#039;s only because the corporations have taken advantage of illegal immigration to pay wages no legal resident would work for because a pay that low that legal residents would have to pay taxes on makes it worthless. It also allows corporations to sidestep minimum wage requirements and weaken unions. 

If we criticize Republicans or the Tea Party folks...it should be because they engage in racism or some of them are inspired by racist concerns or support the neo-liberal economic rape going on around the world. However there are many who have LOCAL ECONOMIC concerns or concerns about the application of LAW, and we shouldn&#039;t condemn that. A lot of what they say regarding the LATTER is accurate and as Muslims we should stand for the truth. 
 
Most people would support legalizing young people who came here at a young age or were born here...it isn&#039;t their fault their parents broke the law. But most right wingers are not going to agree with legalizing undocumented adults.  However it is unwise and cruel to break up families through deportation or jail sentences...so an accommodation should be reached: What&#039;s most plausible is to offer the adults legal residency and having to pay taxes(including any back taxes), but they DO NOT get citizenship or it&#039;s privileges like voting or a US passport. There has to be SOME meaningful penalty or the right wing will not cooperate in carrying out reform.

Immigration is a great thing and I think it should be encouraged and allowed all over the world...including in Muslim nations...but we have to be honest and admit it can NOT be unrestricted due to practical realities of the modern world...and the law also has to be respected with exceptions being made for refugees, the disabled, etc. whom Islam DOES require us to give special attention to. 

Ideally, we would put a gradual and responsible end to this corporate vulture of an economic system that creates poverty around the world so most people wouldn&#039;t feel the NEED to immigrate. Most people love their homeland and would not leave unless they felt compelled for some reason.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Complicated issue w/ no simplistic solution.</p>
<p>#1 Taking examples of the prophetic period, the period of the khulaafa ar rashidoun or even any time in the classical Islamic period is problematic due to the fact that modern economies simply don&#8217;t function as they do today. In the pre-modern period Immigration did not occur at todays level and did not negatively affect local economies. </p>
<p>#2 What Islam would condemn is immigration being restricted based on ethnicity or creed&#8230;but a local ruler<br />
can absolutely impose restrictions based on economic welfare, just as tariffs have always existed in most nations. Basically a ruler has to weigh cost/benefit and has every right to protect the society if it would cause harm.</p>
<p>For example, if theoretically in the Muslim world&#8230;rich nations like Saudi Arabia or UAE allowed unrestricted immigration&#8230;they would be FLOODED with immigrants from poor regions like Sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia the NEXT DAY. It would create a catastrophe for the local economy. It simply does not work in the modern world&#8230;to think otherwise is PC feel good liberal talk.</p>
<p>Right here in the States, ILLEGAL immigration is also posing very real problems. The line is often heard that &#8220;immigrants do jobs Americans won&#8217;t do&#8221;&#8230;Yes, but that&#8217;s only because the corporations have taken advantage of illegal immigration to pay wages no legal resident would work for because a pay that low that legal residents would have to pay taxes on makes it worthless. It also allows corporations to sidestep minimum wage requirements and weaken unions. </p>
<p>If we criticize Republicans or the Tea Party folks&#8230;it should be because they engage in racism or some of them are inspired by racist concerns or support the neo-liberal economic rape going on around the world. However there are many who have LOCAL ECONOMIC concerns or concerns about the application of LAW, and we shouldn&#8217;t condemn that. A lot of what they say regarding the LATTER is accurate and as Muslims we should stand for the truth. </p>
<p>Most people would support legalizing young people who came here at a young age or were born here&#8230;it isn&#8217;t their fault their parents broke the law. But most right wingers are not going to agree with legalizing undocumented adults.  However it is unwise and cruel to break up families through deportation or jail sentences&#8230;so an accommodation should be reached: What&#8217;s most plausible is to offer the adults legal residency and having to pay taxes(including any back taxes), but they DO NOT get citizenship or it&#8217;s privileges like voting or a US passport. There has to be SOME meaningful penalty or the right wing will not cooperate in carrying out reform.</p>
<p>Immigration is a great thing and I think it should be encouraged and allowed all over the world&#8230;including in Muslim nations&#8230;but we have to be honest and admit it can NOT be unrestricted due to practical realities of the modern world&#8230;and the law also has to be respected with exceptions being made for refugees, the disabled, etc. whom Islam DOES require us to give special attention to. </p>
<p>Ideally, we would put a gradual and responsible end to this corporate vulture of an economic system that creates poverty around the world so most people wouldn&#8217;t feel the NEED to immigrate. Most people love their homeland and would not leave unless they felt compelled for some reason.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mww_m		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29354</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mww_m]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jul 2013 17:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29354</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[False analogy. The Muslims never made hijrah illegally. Both to Abysinnia and Madinah, the host nation had allowed the Muslims in.

But now that you&#039;re invoking the Prophet response, let&#039;s look at the treaty of Hudaibiyyah. What happened to Muslim immigrants who came to Madinah when it was illegal. The Prophet (saws) turned them away.

Food for thought.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>False analogy. The Muslims never made hijrah illegally. Both to Abysinnia and Madinah, the host nation had allowed the Muslims in.</p>
<p>But now that you&#8217;re invoking the Prophet response, let&#8217;s look at the treaty of Hudaibiyyah. What happened to Muslim immigrants who came to Madinah when it was illegal. The Prophet (saws) turned them away.</p>
<p>Food for thought.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Seth		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29353</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Seth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jul 2013 17:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Simple book keeping says that a single nation / person can&#039;t provide for the rest of the world.
Yet, when in Spain, I encountered a woman with infant huddled in the corner of doorsteps outside on a cold winter night. How could anyone just walk on by?
Sometimes, you have to reach out a helping hand.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simple book keeping says that a single nation / person can&#8217;t provide for the rest of the world.<br />
Yet, when in Spain, I encountered a woman with infant huddled in the corner of doorsteps outside on a cold winter night. How could anyone just walk on by?<br />
Sometimes, you have to reach out a helping hand.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Farah		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29352</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Farah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 19:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29352</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29351&quot;&gt;Ahmed&lt;/a&gt;.

Agreed brother Ahmed. While my heart wants the entire world to have the same advantages and blessings we do here, I think that the matter is much more complicated than just opening the borders, a issue like this cannot be made this simple, sadly.  As for the injustices that are happening, may Allah ease our pain and make our situation better, ameen.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29351">Ahmed</a>.</p>
<p>Agreed brother Ahmed. While my heart wants the entire world to have the same advantages and blessings we do here, I think that the matter is much more complicated than just opening the borders, a issue like this cannot be made this simple, sadly.  As for the injustices that are happening, may Allah ease our pain and make our situation better, ameen.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ahmed		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/islam-studies/prophet-muhammad/a-prophetic-response-to-immigration-reform-a-muslim-perspective/#comment-29351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ahmed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jul 2013 12:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=24484#comment-29351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[ASA, while I agree that immigration reform with an eye towards mercy would be fitting the prophetic tradition, I think you&#039;ve over simplified things a little bit:  Firstly, both of the acts of emigration of the Muslims from Mecca was done with the permission of the parties receiving them: the Muslims were accepted in both Abyssinia and Medina, this is not the case with &#039;undocumented&#039; (aka Illegal) immigrants.  Further, certain sahaba which escaped Mecca to imigrate to Medina were returned (deported) to their captors in Mecca after the prophet (saw) and the Meccans agreed in a treaty (which is a law) that the Meccans could block immigration, this despite the suffering of that sahaba; here we also have laws which require the deportation of persons who have immigrated illegally.
I&#039;m sure there are more examples but its important to point this out because no one should be allowed to co-op our religion to support their political views: there is room within the religion for opinions for and against immigration reform and no one should get to say that &quot;this is the Muslim opinion&quot;, say instead &quot;my religion informs my values and this is my opinion and here&#039;s why&quot;... but I understand that maybe that&#039;s too long of a title.  Allah guide us.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ASA, while I agree that immigration reform with an eye towards mercy would be fitting the prophetic tradition, I think you&#8217;ve over simplified things a little bit:  Firstly, both of the acts of emigration of the Muslims from Mecca was done with the permission of the parties receiving them: the Muslims were accepted in both Abyssinia and Medina, this is not the case with &#8216;undocumented&#8217; (aka Illegal) immigrants.  Further, certain sahaba which escaped Mecca to imigrate to Medina were returned (deported) to their captors in Mecca after the prophet (saw) and the Meccans agreed in a treaty (which is a law) that the Meccans could block immigration, this despite the suffering of that sahaba; here we also have laws which require the deportation of persons who have immigrated illegally.<br />
I&#8217;m sure there are more examples but its important to point this out because no one should be allowed to co-op our religion to support their political views: there is room within the religion for opinions for and against immigration reform and no one should get to say that &#8220;this is the Muslim opinion&#8221;, say instead &#8220;my religion informs my values and this is my opinion and here&#8217;s why&#8221;&#8230; but I understand that maybe that&#8217;s too long of a title.  Allah guide us.</p>
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