Salam, something that I forgot is this link by Muhammad Taqi Usmani ,

http://ccm-inc.org/oldsite/iqra/articles/authsun/index.html

This makes clear any misconceptions and objections, also for extra reading

http://ccm-inc.org/oldsite/iqra/articles/ihadith.html

Take care
W.salam

Salam Brother/Sister

I think this answers your points on the stoning/lashing issue

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/07/opposition-rajm-analysis-refutation.html

How would you suggest we pray if suppose we say throw all hadiths in the bin? I suppose each one of us should make up whatever we want?

With regards to prayer maybe people reported seeing the Prophet (saw) pray differently because he did pray differently – this is what all the evidence points to, your idea that ‘logically’ he must have prayed exactly in one manner at all times is merely your assertion.

Well this is my last word on this issue. I do not wish to labour the point but the main points that I raised remain unanswered (I will however read that book you recommended ):
1) ’49 companions from whom Hadith were written down, in many cases from their own hands’. Tell me then, why was the first supposedly 100% authentic Hadith collection written 200 years after the Prophet (peace be upon him died)? If the collections you mentioned were really from the companions, they would be 100% authentic and further Hadith collections would not be required. It is also amazing how none of the major companions (i.e. from the Veterans of Badr, the 10 promised paradise) were the authors of a Hadith collection by their own hands*. It doesn’t take long to write down a Hadith collection, It would take no longer than a day to write down something of the length of Sahih Bukhari. (*i’m discounting the last 3 companions you mentioned Osman as they didn’t actually write the Hadith down themselves- this leads to a great possibility of the recorders forging statements on their part-as was the possibly the case with ibn Abbas and his ‘narrations’ allowing Nikah Mutah).
2) The point about differences of Salah remains unanswered as there is no answer. It is absolutely ridiculous that the Prophet (peace be upon him) would have allowed , for example, people to recite behind the Imam on somedays but forbid it on others,this is just confusing, any person with a sane and logical mind would admit that there was only one way to pray which we now probably do not know. (I do appreciate that the intention behind Salat is important and how we move our hands and other issues are fairly trivial, but this just illustrates the weakness of Hadith narration when you cannot agree on how to do an action that the Prophet (peace be upon him)carried out at least 20,000 times in his life.
3)The point about Adultery remains unanswered because there is no answer.

A lot of the scholars will try and justify things like stoning to death by talking about how most of the scholars held this opinion so it must be true. Intuitively this argument makes sense but when we look at the histories of Christianity and Judaism, we find that it wasn’t the good well intentioned people (whom the Scholars generally hold in contempt) who corrupted these religions, it was the Scholars themselves who did this henious action. This is why I bid everyone to develop a deep suspicion of the motives and the actions of anyone claiming any kind of religious authority and to hold these authorities to account when they are trying to fool you into following something that goes against the Quran by hiding behind a false pretense of knowledge. We can even see in this paper that the Sheikh is trying to dismiss all criticism of traditional methodologies with feable arguments, ad hominem attacks and sweeping value judgements. This is similar to how the Church dismissed any talk of Science that challenged the established Church view during the middle ages as well as their persecution of people who tried to translate the bible into native languages so that it could be understood by all people. The bottom line is that you can pretend all you want in claiming that there is a justification for Hadith abrogating the Quran whether the issue is Adultery, Apostasy, the trustworthiness of the companions (according to Shia Muslims) or even the finality of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as Allah’s last prophet (according to the Ahmadiyya, further illustrating the dangers of Hadith abrograting the Quran, because where do you stop?).
Any ruling by any sheikh contradicting the Quran is nothing but a corruption even if it is based on Hadith.

For your reflection, I leave you with a verse from the Quran and a Hadith:

They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #31)

Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from `Adi bin Hatim r.a., who was a Christian during the time of Jahiliyya … The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah;

اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah). `Adi commented, “I said, `They did not worship them.”’ The Prophet said,

«بَلَى إِنَّهُمْ حَرَّمُوا عَلَيْهِمُ الْحَلَالَ وَأَحَلُّوا لَهُمُ الْحَرَامَ فَاتَّبَعُوهُمْ فَذَلِكَ عِبَادَتُهُمْ إِيَّاهُم»

Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.

Sheikh Sohaib,

I completely agree. My concern is that others outside of this discussion would get confused unless a few essentials were mentioned.

BarakAllahu feek for your advice and wisdom.

Here is just a bit of information on the writing of hadith during the Prophet’s life and the 1st generation after his death. Please refer the summer nights class on hadith for more details.

http://summernights2010.wordpress.com/upcoming-classes/an-introduction-to-the-sciences-of-hadith/

The Writing of Hadith by the Companions and during their lives:

• Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Aas
– al Saheefa al Sadiqa
• Anas ibn Malik
– He wrote and reviewed with the Prophet
• Jabir bin Abdullah
– Used to write and teach his hadith in the Prophet’s masjid
– Book of Hajj (much of it found in Saheeh Muslim)
• Aisha
– Urwa bin Zubair wrote her hadith
• Abdullah ibn Abbas
– His hadeeth were written in his life (by the People of Taaif)
– Saeed ibn Musayyib wrote his hadeeth as well.
• Abdullah ibn Omar
– Nafi’ used to write his hadith

I retain my conviction that debating the issues here would be fruitless. But just in case you actually wish to know, please see “Studies in Early Hadith Literature” by Professor M.M. Al-Azami, where he lists (with references) 49 companions from whom hadiths were narrated in written form, in many cases written by their own hands.

If the hadith was written down during the time of the companions, tell me, where is the Sahih Umar ibn Al Khattab? where is the Sahih Ali ibn Abi Talib? Your claim that hadith was written down during the time of the companions is nothing but conjecture with no evidence to back it up. Think about it, why would they write down just a few random hadith, surely they would have taken a systematic approach and write down everything relating to the different topics and compile a book. Are you telling me that the empire which had the intelligence to defeat the Roman and Persian empires didn’t have the intelligence to do this?

I will leave you with some verses from the Quran for reflection:

Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord , then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty.” 32:22

“And when our revelations are recited to the one of them, he turns away in arrogance as if he never heard them, as if his ears are deaf. Promise him a painful retribution.” 31:7

I think your belief in Hadith is extremely uninformed. And nothing that anyone has written here has answered my objections.
1) The fact remains that the companions never wrote down hadith, are you telling me that the largest and wealthiest empire in the world at that time did not have the resources to write hadith down?
2) There are major differences in Salah, whether you recite quietly behind an imam or not is pretty major. Whether you pray asr at one time or the other is also major.The only way you can justify these differences is to insult the imams and those who came up with the opinions (which is unjust but yet some people do it, especially with Abu Hanifa).
3)Since stoning to death is for married individuals and whipping is for the unmarried; tell me this what is the punishment for a married slave who commits adultery? It is known that a slave recieves half the punishment of a freeman , so what is a half stoning? Or did you throw verse out of the Quran as well?
Let me clarify a point, I don’t mean to offend anyone here but as a Muslim, cannot accept something as 100 percent authentic when it contradicts the Quran and seems to ‘abrogate’ Quranic verses at will. If you follow the Quran and realise that actions like working hard, keeping your promises, protecting your chastity and being honest are infinitely more important than whether you shake hands with a woman or whether you celebrate mothers day (2 topics which are deemed among the most important among Muslims on this website despite all the other problems in the world) you will see progress and a better world for all. One of my main problems with Hadith is that it completely takes away your perspective regarding what is very important and what is less important.

Osman, I recently had the pleasure of discussing hadith literature, among other things, with a fellow Muslim from Pakistan. He completely rejected hadith literature as illegitimate, unsophisticated, and ultimately dangerous for healthy social organization. Now, I definitely have problems with the whole “reading a book or two and you’re a scholar” mindset (although all learning begins with just a book or two), but I think the gut-distrust for hadith literature may be a deeper problem, perhaps rooted in the modern issues of authority within contemporary Islam. I think for many of us average Muslims and “non-traditional” scholars, particularly for academics in the West who are “illegitimate” essentially for ad hominem reasons, there is a feeling that the “traditional” scholars (and “traditional” is perhaps the only historically authoritative term we have) are forcefully attempting to maintain a monopoly over religious knowledge. It is people like Sh. Suhaib Webb and our Scottish Sh. Sohaib Saeed who are reaching out to democratize religious knowledge, if you will, and for this I am very grateful. It bridges the gap between the hungry ignorant, like myself, and the knowledgeable but distant. What I’m saying is that we can’t just attack the branches of these debates (the fine points of prayer, or the failure of Western hermeneutics to have perfectly mirrored the so-called Arabic hermeneutics, for instance), we need to target the roots- ugly institutions of gender and racial oppression, a struggle for authority that often becomes vitriolic (from all sides), and so on. We need to call a spade a spade and not a big spoon. 😉

My favorite Scot,

Thanks for the suggestion of Dr. Mustafa as-Siba’ee’s book.

May Allah bless all your efforts.