I think there are a few issues with Ibn Hajr, he was influenced by his surroundings, but he certainly was not an Ashari.

Also Abu Yusuf, Sufyan Thawri, Tabari, Bukhari, Tirmidhi and Imam Al-Tahawi followed Athari theology.

Infact many Islamic Scholars before abu hassan al ashari and abu mansur matarudi were athari in aqeedah.

One of the flaws of maturidi theology is that they claim that Imam does not increase or decrease.
This maturidi tenet is wrong and goes against Quran and hadith.

Allah (swt) says; “The believers are only those who, when Allah is mentioned, their hearts become fearful, and when His verses are recited to them, it increases them in faith; and upon their Lord they rely.” [Quran 8:2]

one of the flaws of ashari creed is that they claim unaided human mind is unable to determine if something is good or evil, lawful or unlawful, moral or immoral, without the direct aid of divine revelation. Unfortunately the ashari undermine the fitra (innate disposition).

The Ash’ari view as explained by al-Ghazali says that a non-Muslim who was unreached by the message of Islam, or was reached by it in a distorted fashion, is not responsible for this in the afterlife.

The Athari and Maturidi view states that the existence of God is so evident and rationally discernible and in our fitra, that every human being who has intellect and the ability to think (thus excluding children and the mentally ill and disabled) and was unreached by the message of Islam and does not believe in God will end up in hell, and divine amnesty is only available to those non-Muslims who believed in God, were as a whole morally upright and were unreached by the Islamic message.

Another flaw of ashari’s theology is that some asharis claim that Allah’s kalam has no sound but is only an internal speech. This is wrong because the Quran states that Musa (as) heared Allah’s kalam.

“And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.” [Quran 4:164]

Also some asharis and maturidis claimed that the Quran is not actual kalaam of Allah!! Astaghfirullah.

Ghazali (an ashari) claimed that Allah speaks without words and sound. His speech is the speech of mind. [ghazali – ihyaa uloom al Din]

Obviously ghazali’s view above is wrong since its clear grom hadith literature that Prophet Muhammad (saw)heared Allah’s speech during the mi’raj. Also angels can hear Allah’s Speech. Musa (as) was honoured by listening to Allah’s Speech.

Also there were many great Scholars of the Khalaf that followed athari thoelogy such as Ibn Jawzi, Ibn Qudama, Bayhaqi, Abu Bakr al Jassas, Ibn Taymiya, Ibn Qayyim, Ibn Kathir, Dhahabi, Ibn Hajr Al Asqalani and Ibn Jazari.

Assalamaualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Yes. These disputes seem to me a way of following the Jews and Christians into the lizard hole-we just take the approach of the Prophet salalahualayhiwasalam and the sahabah and we are 100% correct and 100% free of criticism.

Now that’s a position of guidance.

I have been so into unity in Islam praying for it to happen especially in the west and so for this reason not only do I jump into reading any article on the topic of unity. I have also been following up on the comments that follows (since am just curious about others opinions) I must say things are looking good .I mean a step towards even talking about unity is better than nothing Alhamdullilah

Anyways I was here following up on comments, when I came across sister kate commets/post. Manshallah it is a nice article.( I cant really say I know much about it other than attending few events here and there outside the institute) But am sure zaytuna might benefit and appreciate getting feedbacks regarding the institute. We all know that it is through feedback that we all improve or keep up our good efforts when it comes services we offer.

Reading this post which sis Kate is wondering if it can be posted on virtualmosque.com as one of the articles. I somehow thought how others would take it if they saw this coming from virtualmosque.com. what are the chances that one might say “here comes virtualmosque.com attacking zaytuna.

I guess it very possible and so knowing that Suhaibwebb.com is a site about unity/brotherhood and helping each other out to improve on ourselves and learn something. I think its better not to post it here instead if anything may be sis Kate you can try posting it on zaytuna.com or on one of the leaders/shaikhs blogs (I know brother Hamza or Brother Zaid both have blogs). Or May be virtualmosque.com can try to get the messange delivered to zaytuna directly if possible inshallah .

I could be very wrong. (Forgive me if I am)

Somehow I thought about how others would react reading it from some else web site. Plus may be zaytuna has reason as to why things are the way they are eg why their prize tag are high plus its possible that they might not be aware of some of the things happening out there sometimes and to me I would say the best way is to send this article directly to zaytuna.com

Allah knows best

Your sis in Islam

I have been so into unity in Islam praying for it to happen especially in the west and so for this reason not only do I jump into reading any article on the topic of unity. I have also been following up on the comments that follows (since am just curious about others opinions) I must say things are looking good .I mean a step towards even talking about unity is better than nothing Alhamdullilah

Anyways I was here following up on comments, when I came across sister kate commets/post. Manshallah it is a nice article.( I cant really say I know much about it other than attending few events here and there outside the institute) But am sure zaytuna might benefit and appreciate getting feedbacks regarding the institute. We all know that it is through feedback that we all improve or keep up our good efforts when it comes services we offer.

Reading this post which sis Kate is wondering if it can be posted on virtualmosque.com as one of the articles. I somehow thought how others would take it if they saw this coming from virtualmosque.com. what are the chances that one might say “here comes virtualmosque.com attacking zaytuna.

I guess it very possible and so knowing that Suhaibwebb.com is a site about unity/brotherhood and helping each other out to improve on ourselves and learn something. I think its better not to post it here instead if anything may be sis Kate you can try posting it on zaytuna.com or on one of the leaders/shaikhs blogs (I know brother Hamza or Brother Zaid both have blogs). Or May be virtualmosque.com can try to get the messange delivered to zaytuna directly if possible inshallah .

I could be very wrong. (Forgive me if I am)

Somehow I thought about how others would react reading it from some else web site. Plus may be zaytuna has reason as to why things are the way they are eg why their prize tag are high plus its possible that they might not be aware of some of the things happening out there sometimes and to me I would say the best way is to send this article directly to zaytuna.com

Allah knows best

Your sis in Islam

Not Beyond Reprove:
7 Ways Zaytuna Can Improve

Through commanding the right and forbidding the wrong, we are taught, as a nation, to be self-critical. For that which is private, we must discuss privately; and for that which is public (like the subject of this paper), we may discuss in the open. Our only guidelines are to be polite in our manner, loving and kind in our intention.
In the last few years, there has been great advancement in the community in terms of knowledge and da’wa. Gratitude goes to Al-Maghrib, Zaytuna, and Suhaib Webb, especially through his blog http://www.virtualmosque.com. More recently, these mountains have come together through the Pledge of Unity. I believe we now have a peaceful environment in which ideas, critical ones, can be exchanged without the perception that these are attacks and bashes. As such, I have jotted down a few ways I believe Zaytuna can get better:
1) More Reasonable Fees: Every time I see an ad for a Minaqra I say, “Great! I’ll get to see the Imams and all the sisters. But then…oh no!…There’s a price tag. How much is it, $45, $60, $80! Forget it.” I ask myself, “Who in the world can afford this stuff?” It’s a no-brainer that I cannot go. I have to ask, “Does it really cost all that to fly over the speakers?” This must be a way to generate money. If so, then shame on Zaytuna, because a lot of people, like those of the inner-city, can’t afford these fees. Please make Minaras more reasonable. Fundraise in another way.

2) Academizing Seasons: The Seasons journal is great, but is it a magazine or a journal? It’s not an academic journal for sure. If it wants that reputation, then it needs to publish academic articles, which it rarely does. Also, please diversify. I can predict who will be in each issue. I don’t want Zaytuna to be ‘the same old people.’

3) Regional classes: I recently heard that Al-Maghrib has over 7,000 registered students. And they are a lot younger that Zaytuna, and don’t have a world-renown spokesperson like Imam Hamza. How do they do it? And why isn’t Zaytuna competing?
Some say, “It’s the Saudi financing” (for Al-Maghrib’s success). I would disagree. It’s the regional classes. 75 students from Atlanta, 100 from New York, 25 from Alabama, 150 from Michigan….and so on. That’s how you get 7,000 registered students over time. It doesn’t mean there are 7K students with their noses in yellow-paged texts at this very moment. It means that over the years, Al-Maghrib has delivered weekend classes to 7K Muslims in America. And that number is growing. In ten years it should be in five digits, maybe six.
Trust me, Zaytuna will not compete until it adopts regional classes. And I don’t mean weekend classes (no one wants their weekend eaten up like that). I mean night-time community-college style classes that meet once or twice a week for the Fall or Spring terms. Hire two locals, an instructor, and a rent out a class room. This should not be difficult for an organization like Zaytuna.

4) Community Relations: There have been a lot of complaints against the staff at Zaytuna. The Imams and the old-timers are wonderful, but the worker bees have an air of arrogance and aloofness to them. From where was this derived?? I would say that the number one thing that turns me off from Zaytuna is that their people are not personable. My message to them: “Please be normal. Be real, and don’t forget your origins.” A humble and professional staff would be a great asset for Zaytuna.

5) Diversity of instructors: I love all the Zaytuna teachers, but after about ten years, we are presented with the same mashayikh. A long time ago, you used to live in a village and had the same imams all your life. That was acceptable because there were no other options! Here in America and in the UK and Canada, there are so many qualified instructors. Also, the people of this age are different. We require more diversity than in previous epochs.

6) Urban Muslims Get No Love: If you are a brother or sister from the rougher cities in our country, you might not even know what Zaytuna is. Insofar as Zaytuna is dedicated to da’wa (as opposed to training scholars), 50% of that dedication must be focused on Blackamericans, because they have displayed a readiness to listen. Rap and Hip Hop is the only place Islam gets any props. If the inner city gets no attention because they have no money, then shame on Zaytuna. There is no Muslim sub-community in America that has more influence on this country than Blackamericans.

7) Accreditation: Lastly, and I believe they are working on this, is that Zaytuna needs to get accredited. An added incentive for people to attend Al-Maghrib is that they are officially accredited. That means you can put it above the ‘personal interests’ part of your resume.
Here they are in sum. I hope these words don’t fall on deaf ears:
Reasonable Fees
Academizing Seasons
Regional Night Classes
Better community relations
Diversity in teachers and authors
Urban-setting programs
Accreditation
Sincerely,
Your Sister Kate Suhaila.

I think that the various polemics currently available are adequate for the non-specialist to ‘decide’ to a certain extent if they so wish – even if ‘deciding’ looks like ‘sitting on the fence’. At the end of the day, what kind of ‘deciding’ can a muqallid do anyway? The vigorous ‘salafi’ or ‘Ash’ari’ lines of argument are well developed in English. Maybe the path between the two – one that I mentioned in the article in relation to Hasan al-Banna – could be better developed; but even that is not ‘neutral’, for he’s making a case for accepting both as Ahl as-Sunnah.

Ultimately, knowing God for most Muslims means simply believing in absolutes, i.e. those matters that are conclusively proven by the primary sources, without doubt or argument amongst those ‘considered Sunni’ (which includes ‘Ash’aris’ and ‘salafis’). Those with a ‘Deobandi’ or ‘Azhari’ education that I’ve been blessed to know have not stressed being ‘Ash’ari’ or ‘salafi’, but just to be ‘Sunni’, without condemning either the Ash’aris or salafis; in fact, they have only stressed a minimalist theology for the non-specialist, which in practice means sticking to the text of Imam Tahawi’s al-‘Aqidah at-Tahawiyya without commentary. Such a position is not so fancy as being a ‘salafi’ or ‘Ash’ari’, but it is probably more realistic. [Of course, one can debate whether such a minimalist position is really ‘Ash’ari’, or is it really ‘salafi’, or is it something else? The debates go on…]

After settling upon one’s limitations, one is then able to move on in trying to develop their relationship with God before meeting Him and being taken to account for one’s deeds. Shaykh Iqbal Azami always played down these theological debates, and wanted Muslims – scholars, students and laypeople – to move on from this debate. It is not to belittle the debate, but just to acknowledge when one is at a stalemate, which can never be the case with the categorically-proven matters of the religion, for which this debate is not one of them.

Fi amanillah

Andrew

To quote our esteemed brother Andrew:
“Nevertheless, the legacy of the salaf has been differently interpreted; hence we have this discussion, and terms like ‘Ash’ari’ and ’salafi’, which refer to schools and are thus complex. People have to decide for themselves about whose narrative of the legacy they find most true.”

Well, the last statement there, to me, is the crux of the matter.
It begs the question of just -how- people are to decide for themselves.

What tools -are- there for the aspirant between the muqallid and the mujtahid?

-Is- there a simple tract, neutral and unbiased, delineating the position of the two contending schools with proofs both sufficient yet simple, such that people can decide for themselves?

If not, surely one is called for.

wa’l salam

Everything in our religion demands unity. we are all Muslim we believe in oneness of Allah swt Quran and Sunnah of the prophet Saw is our one and only guide. We all stand together shoulder to shoulder young , old, black ,white ,poor and rich and face one direction in our daily prayers (qiblah )lets hold tight. We are Muslims and lets all remember unity is our religious obligation.

Everything in our religion demands unity. we are all Muslim we believe in oneness of Allah swt Quran and Sunnah of the prophet Saw is our one and only guide. We all stand together shoulder to shoulder young , old, black ,white ,poor and rich and face one direction in our daily prayers (qiblah )lets hold tight. We are Muslims and lets all remember unity is our religious obligation.