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	Comments on: Dispatches from #OccupySF [Updated 12/4/11]	</title>
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		By: #MAS-ICNA 2011: A reflection on challenges facing the Muslim community today &#171; Maghrebi Minds		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25792</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[#MAS-ICNA 2011: A reflection on challenges facing the Muslim community today &#171; Maghrebi Minds]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25792</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] the National Defense Authorization which is about to be signed, the Irvine 11, Occupy Wall Street movement, growing fears of &#8220;creeping Sharia&#8221; along with Peter King&#8217;s [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] the National Defense Authorization which is about to be signed, the Irvine 11, Occupy Wall Street movement, growing fears of &#8220;creeping Sharia&#8221; along with Peter King&#8217;s [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Davi		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25791</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Davi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25791</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786&quot;&gt;LMN&lt;/a&gt;.

Sure I can clarify.
Let&#039;s say I grow tomatoes. From a Lockean view I have mixed the land with my labor to produce a valuable good which would not have existed if had not contributed my labor. I own that labor, as a function of owning my body. There is a theological hair to split here for Muslims, where we might say that Allah owns my body, but I am clearly the vicegerent of my body and all else follows the same.

So, the reason, the incentive I have to transform soil into a valuable good is that I expect to benefit from it, either by feeding myself, feeding my family, feeding my neighbor in charity, or selling the goods in the market.

In my view, because I am the owner/vicegerent of my body and my labor I am accountable for my actions. If I engage in destructive behavior I am responsible for compensating the victim of my actions. If I engage in constructive behavior I am responsible for the goods that I produce. So the responsibility falls on me to allocate the tomatoes. How much to my family? How much to my neighbor? How much to the market? For Muslims Allah gives guidance in this decision, but the responsibility still falls on me to follow that guidance.

If you arrive at my farm and claim responsibility for allocating the tomatoes, even though we have no contract, and you have provided no labor, you are de facto claiming to be the owner/vicegerent of my actions. You are going back in time and saying, &quot;No, you did not labor in soil so that you may benefit. You labored in the soil so that I may benefit.&quot;

You are claiming that I labor for you against my will.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786">LMN</a>.</p>
<p>Sure I can clarify.<br />
Let&#8217;s say I grow tomatoes. From a Lockean view I have mixed the land with my labor to produce a valuable good which would not have existed if had not contributed my labor. I own that labor, as a function of owning my body. There is a theological hair to split here for Muslims, where we might say that Allah owns my body, but I am clearly the vicegerent of my body and all else follows the same.</p>
<p>So, the reason, the incentive I have to transform soil into a valuable good is that I expect to benefit from it, either by feeding myself, feeding my family, feeding my neighbor in charity, or selling the goods in the market.</p>
<p>In my view, because I am the owner/vicegerent of my body and my labor I am accountable for my actions. If I engage in destructive behavior I am responsible for compensating the victim of my actions. If I engage in constructive behavior I am responsible for the goods that I produce. So the responsibility falls on me to allocate the tomatoes. How much to my family? How much to my neighbor? How much to the market? For Muslims Allah gives guidance in this decision, but the responsibility still falls on me to follow that guidance.</p>
<p>If you arrive at my farm and claim responsibility for allocating the tomatoes, even though we have no contract, and you have provided no labor, you are de facto claiming to be the owner/vicegerent of my actions. You are going back in time and saying, &#8220;No, you did not labor in soil so that you may benefit. You labored in the soil so that I may benefit.&#8221;</p>
<p>You are claiming that I labor for you against my will.</p>
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		<title>
		By: River		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25790</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[River]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2011 23:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25790</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Salam brother Davi, I appreciate your clarity in using Locke&#039;s moral theories, it makes sense. I also do not agree with the anarchists running a muck at times. I do however disagree about adbusters magazine, which has generated much discussion on points that are not available else where whether u agree or not with some of their political statements. I think this magazine is a great step towards decentralizing private ownership by the 1% and giving it back to the 99.

Keep up the good work ak. We all love u for it.

Faisal]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salam brother Davi, I appreciate your clarity in using Locke&#8217;s moral theories, it makes sense. I also do not agree with the anarchists running a muck at times. I do however disagree about adbusters magazine, which has generated much discussion on points that are not available else where whether u agree or not with some of their political statements. I think this magazine is a great step towards decentralizing private ownership by the 1% and giving it back to the 99.</p>
<p>Keep up the good work ak. We all love u for it.</p>
<p>Faisal</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25789</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2011 01:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25789</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[LMN: One central figure in the Occupy Movement is David Graeber, who has recently published a book called &quot;Debt: The First 5000 Years&quot;. It is a brilliant history of the social institution of debt, and it includes what I think is probably the most informative and compelling analysis of the Islamic economic tradition. Capitalism has a peculiarly European origin, based in the marriage of war and commerce, and so the socialist solution (also European in origin) is like it&#039;s mirror image. Trade in the Islamic world was certainly market-based, in fact, much of contemporary &quot;free market&quot; doctrine is stolen from Islamic sources, and perverted by its decontextualization (Graeber presents several examples of this). Without a basis in Islam, which obviates the development of capitalism by various means (such as the abolition of usury), market commerce, and those participating in it, can not prosper without the exploitation that is inherent to capitalism (something that Marxian economic theory has demonstrated). Islam prevents the evil of capitalism, and permits all the good.

I think the author of this article would also appreciate the book, as the chapter on Islam explores specifically the credit system that developed, which extended credit based not (solely) on profiteering, but on honor and reputation, to the mutual benefit between all parties. This too was taken by Europeans and corrupted (or perhaps simply mismanaged), leading to the development of financially-driven capitalist empires.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LMN: One central figure in the Occupy Movement is David Graeber, who has recently published a book called &#8220;Debt: The First 5000 Years&#8221;. It is a brilliant history of the social institution of debt, and it includes what I think is probably the most informative and compelling analysis of the Islamic economic tradition. Capitalism has a peculiarly European origin, based in the marriage of war and commerce, and so the socialist solution (also European in origin) is like it&#8217;s mirror image. Trade in the Islamic world was certainly market-based, in fact, much of contemporary &#8220;free market&#8221; doctrine is stolen from Islamic sources, and perverted by its decontextualization (Graeber presents several examples of this). Without a basis in Islam, which obviates the development of capitalism by various means (such as the abolition of usury), market commerce, and those participating in it, can not prosper without the exploitation that is inherent to capitalism (something that Marxian economic theory has demonstrated). Islam prevents the evil of capitalism, and permits all the good.</p>
<p>I think the author of this article would also appreciate the book, as the chapter on Islam explores specifically the credit system that developed, which extended credit based not (solely) on profiteering, but on honor and reputation, to the mutual benefit between all parties. This too was taken by Europeans and corrupted (or perhaps simply mismanaged), leading to the development of financially-driven capitalist empires.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Young Sheikh Mujahid		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25788</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Young Sheikh Mujahid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25788</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786&quot;&gt;LMN&lt;/a&gt;.

ASA,
This was a pretty good article. I didn&#039;t know the Occupy Movements were functioning in that manner. But sis, to answer your query, there are some resources concering property in Islam. Check out Mohammad Hisham Kamali&#039;s book, &quot;The Right to Life, Security, Privacy and Ownership in Islam.&quot;
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b10003.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786">LMN</a>.</p>
<p>ASA,<br />
This was a pretty good article. I didn&#8217;t know the Occupy Movements were functioning in that manner. But sis, to answer your query, there are some resources concering property in Islam. Check out Mohammad Hisham Kamali&#8217;s book, &#8220;The Right to Life, Security, Privacy and Ownership in Islam.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b10003.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b10003.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Zayd Yahya		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25787</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zayd Yahya]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25787</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786&quot;&gt;LMN&lt;/a&gt;.

Books can and have been written on this issue....but as a socialist who converted to Islam, I would say that there is common ground on social justice issues. Differences arise, however, when means and goals are discussed. For example - the socialist agitates for the establishment of a &quot;classless society&quot; where &quot;everything belongs to everyone&quot; and the government redistributes assets. By comparison, Islam recognizes that there will always exist rich and poor and instead levies a MORAL obligation on the wealthy to help those in need. And this gets to the crux of the issue - Islam is pro-Morality while Marxism is a moral void. IMO, #Occupy needs to exchange its &quot;tax the rich&quot; placards for &quot;tax the BANKS&quot;...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786">LMN</a>.</p>
<p>Books can and have been written on this issue&#8230;.but as a socialist who converted to Islam, I would say that there is common ground on social justice issues. Differences arise, however, when means and goals are discussed. For example &#8211; the socialist agitates for the establishment of a &#8220;classless society&#8221; where &#8220;everything belongs to everyone&#8221; and the government redistributes assets. By comparison, Islam recognizes that there will always exist rich and poor and instead levies a MORAL obligation on the wealthy to help those in need. And this gets to the crux of the issue &#8211; Islam is pro-Morality while Marxism is a moral void. IMO, #Occupy needs to exchange its &#8220;tax the rich&#8221; placards for &#8220;tax the BANKS&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: LMN		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25786</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LMN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25786</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;So, according to the Marxist all goods must always be owned in common. From my perspective, owning the fruits of my labor is akin to owning my labor, which is akin to owning my body, which is akin to slavery... I realized that I had never read an Islamic theory of property. I know that there must be property rights in Islam because theft is prohibited, but it would be handy not to have to rely on Locke.&quot;

I wish you could&#039;ve fleshed out your thoughts in these sentences more. I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m convinced you can compare the common ownership Marxists argue for to that of slavery; that&#039;s quite an unsubstantiated leap.

I think, though, that the occupy protests are making a lot of Muslims - at least me - wonder what Islam&#039;s stance is when it comes to not just property rights, but the capitalism vs socialism debate as a whole. I really hope that you, or another contributor to this site, can write a piece fleshing our your thoughts on these particular questions more. Thanks for a wonderful post!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So, according to the Marxist all goods must always be owned in common. From my perspective, owning the fruits of my labor is akin to owning my labor, which is akin to owning my body, which is akin to slavery&#8230; I realized that I had never read an Islamic theory of property. I know that there must be property rights in Islam because theft is prohibited, but it would be handy not to have to rely on Locke.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wish you could&#8217;ve fleshed out your thoughts in these sentences more. I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m convinced you can compare the common ownership Marxists argue for to that of slavery; that&#8217;s quite an unsubstantiated leap.</p>
<p>I think, though, that the occupy protests are making a lot of Muslims &#8211; at least me &#8211; wonder what Islam&#8217;s stance is when it comes to not just property rights, but the capitalism vs socialism debate as a whole. I really hope that you, or another contributor to this site, can write a piece fleshing our your thoughts on these particular questions more. Thanks for a wonderful post!</p>
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		<title>
		By: fishfry		</title>
		<link>https://www.virtualmosque.com/society/domestic-affairs/dispatches-from-occupysf/#comment-25785</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[fishfry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.virtualmosque.com/?p=19976#comment-25785</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Small quibble ... following Sept 17, a handful of brave occupiers camped at 555 California Street. They didn&#039;t move to 101 Market till a week or so later.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Small quibble &#8230; following Sept 17, a handful of brave occupiers camped at 555 California Street. They didn&#8217;t move to 101 Market till a week or so later.</p>
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